tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post6179968201972531692..comments2024-03-07T12:57:35.296-05:00Comments on Varieties of Unreligious Experience: Goal and Guides: How Christians ThinkConrad H. Rothhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-89831575728397838122011-11-16T11:32:32.000-05:002011-11-16T11:32:32.000-05:00One commentator is surprised that curiosity is fou...One commentator is surprised that curiosity is found among the fruits of the tree of evil. St. Thomas Aquinas constrasts the vice of curiosity with the virtue of studiosity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-82896854463813573862009-02-16T19:48:00.000-05:002009-02-16T19:48:00.000-05:00Well, this time I am better armed to your original...Well, this time I am better armed to your original question. The problem is discussed at length in Richard Newhauser, 'Towards a History of Human Curiosity: A Prolegomenon to its Medieval Phase', Deutsche Vierteljahrs Schrift für Literaturwissenschaft und Geistesgeschichte 6 (1982), 559-575. Newhauser cites, e.g., Gregory the Great: "grave namque curiositatis est vitium".<BR/><BR/>Further quotations:<BR/><BR/>"Not just a means of dealing with man's right to free speculation, the moral discussion of this vice also came to include a preoccupation with such this-worldly matters as rhetorical flourishes or elaborate dress. Not just the criticism of a too-great or evilly-intended interest in the affairs of another, vitium curiositatis was also used to describe a perceived secularization of theological studies, an intrusion of the ilberal arts, especially the trivium ... into theological education." (561)<BR/><BR/>"Whether they criticized a mental predisposition for knowing obscure, useless or forbidden things, or accused as sinners those who believed in the truth-value of sensory perception, their analysis was a reminder to Christians that true wisdom was only to be had through faith and the dogma of the Church." (562)<BR/><BR/>As for the <EM>Wake</EM>, yes, let's have a look at your father's annotations!Conrad H. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-65291697124277373512009-02-16T18:20:00.000-05:002009-02-16T18:20:00.000-05:00(I returned, and saw under the sun, that the last ...(I returned, and saw under the sun, that the last word is to him who waits six months.)<BR/><BR/>Conrad, the whole point of that Augustine quotation you linked is that the condemnation of curiosity is either in accord with some special circumstances (as in Augustine's case, evidently) or else is Homer nodding (perhaps also Augustine's case, who knows). If curiosity as such were condemned, there wouldn't be so many good scientists (I speak un-ironically) who are also good Jesuits (literally).<BR/><BR/>I can't fathom why, in speaking of my parents' books, I omitted all mention of my father's two copies of the <I>Wake</I>, heavily annotated. Some day I should perhaps publish those annotations.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-38070417967275017832008-10-26T01:33:00.000-04:002008-10-26T01:33:00.000-04:00I also have a problem with writing in books, I mus...I also have a problem with writing in books, I must say, and tend to get irritated when (after having purchased a second-hand book online) I find it filled with the marginalia of those I do not know.<BR/><BR/>Nonetheless, were I to <I>inherit</I> a book already replete with scribblings then that might be something else entirely... I always looked upon the Talmud as reflecting that degree of trans-generational commentary and, had I a book with my grandfather's notes, I might be tempted to scrawl my own notes on his.<BR/><BR/>And, on another "note":<BR/>Michael, Languagehat: I <I>always</I> sniff books. Eisenbrauns print the best for my nose! I also have some very old and rather dusty tomes of Talmud and Zohar and they are an olfactory <I>feast</I>. So pleased to know that I am not the only one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-78632430565876373422008-10-21T17:47:00.000-04:002008-10-21T17:47:00.000-04:00... a riveting blend of fact and fiction, a drama ...... a riveting blend of fact and fiction, a drama of love, fate, and will, played out against the intellectual ferment of nineteenth century Vienna on the eve of the birth of psychoanalysis. Friedrich Nietzsche, Europe's greatest philosopher...a young medical intern named Sigmund Freud: these are the elements that combine to create the unforgettable saga of ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-61478770217858256012008-10-21T14:13:00.000-04:002008-10-21T14:13:00.000-04:00Maybe Irvin Yalom is working on it at this moment....Maybe Irvin Yalom is working on it at this moment.Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13789528179190065886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-41005872250767173282008-10-21T10:12:00.000-04:002008-10-21T10:12:00.000-04:00Throw in Marx and Nietzsche and there's 600 rip-ro...Throw in Marx and Nietzsche and there's 600 rip-roaring pages there, done.Conrad H. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-19830299687402682402008-10-21T04:36:00.000-04:002008-10-21T04:36:00.000-04:00Poor old Schopenhauer having to put up with Hegel....Poor old Schopenhauer having to put up with Hegel. It's good material for a novel -- or perhaps there is one about them already?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-61730625601353839672008-10-20T17:29:00.000-04:002008-10-20T17:29:00.000-04:00U. D.: thank you, that Schopenhauer is a nice find...U. D.: thank you, that Schopenhauer is a nice find. I might have to look that one up.Conrad H. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-90343828652323751222008-10-19T21:28:00.000-04:002008-10-19T21:28:00.000-04:00Fine post. For some reason the discussion about wr...Fine post. For some reason the discussion about writing in books reminded me of this quote, by a writer whom I have not read, and do not intend to read:<BR/><BR/>"I use a pencil to ill-treat the book, to scribble, to underline, to draw arrows... My sons don't want to use my books, they prefer to buy their own copies because they see the traces of my violence, the pencil stabs, exclamation marks, arrows, underlinings."<BR/>-- Derrida<BR/><BR/><BR/>I never wrote in books myself, though sometimes I'm tempted to, when I read a bad book. But considering that some books I found, like a very old German hymnbook in Gothic, are very frail, I prefer to spare the vintage pages of my insolent scribbles. And I wouldn't dare to scribble on the margins of a book I respect. Marginalia can be an interesting form of literature, though. Poe, in particular, wrote some interesting marginalia.<BR/><BR/>In fact, since you quoted Schopenhauer, <A HREF="http://postsfromunderground.blogspot.com/2008/06/asinus-ad-marginalia.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> is something you might find interesting.Dudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13789528179190065886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-26305994046786522122008-10-19T03:21:00.000-04:002008-10-19T03:21:00.000-04:00Thanks for this.Thanks for this.Pretzel Benderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07499362737998089533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-1339954444582831782008-10-18T20:27:00.000-04:002008-10-18T20:27:00.000-04:00If you're really curious I can find out, but it ma...If you're really curious I can find out, but it may take time. I am an infrequent visitor in a Koran class and the big Eid potluck was last week (yes!). If I show up too often they're either going to think I want to convert or that I can't cook.<BR/><BR/>-NijmaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-34219597834697638032008-10-18T16:12:00.000-04:002008-10-18T16:12:00.000-04:00Thanks for your comment, Nijma. I can only assume ...Thanks for your comment, Nijma. I can only assume that writing in a Koran would be a lesser evil than doodling in it.Conrad H. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-80613321590772332522008-10-18T16:03:00.000-04:002008-10-18T16:03:00.000-04:00I would never write in a book, not even on the ins...I would never write in a book, not even on the inside cover. If I want to keep notes, like a list of frequently consulted pages, I write it on a folded piece of paper and slip it inside the cover.<BR/><BR/>My childhood Bible however is full of underlining and notes in a careful third grade hand. I suppose it's interesting in a way to see what interested me about religion as a third grader, (and to see how my penmanship has degraded since), but if I want to consult a Bible now I don't use that one, I use an unmarked one or go online.<BR/><BR/>I can't remember if I wrote in that Bible because I was encouraged to do so or if I thought of that on my own, but it is a contrast to how I saw a Koran being handled in the Middle East. We got into some sort of religious discussion and wanted to consult the Koran, so my host's brother got a Koran from its hiding place in another room then touched it to his forehead before opening it. I have also seen this gesture to the forehead when someone agrees to obey. The phrase spoken with it is "ala rasi" or "on my head". I don't think there is any question that these guys would not write in a Koran.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-29908136115752313172008-10-17T19:07:00.000-04:002008-10-17T19:07:00.000-04:00Hi languagehat,"You stupidhead" is charming compar...Hi languagehat,<BR/><BR/>"You stupidhead" is charming compared to the stuff my Grandmother writes in books! She was born in Calabria-- so maybe the Southern Italian blood?? <BR/><BR/>Enjoy your weekend.Peonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15418037102755683814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-38391864755021589612008-10-17T14:36:00.000-04:002008-10-17T14:36:00.000-04:00Incidentally, John, it doesn't at all surprise me ...Incidentally, John, it doesn't at all surprise me that 'curiosity' should be on the hit list. Compare <A HREF="http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=148324" REL="nofollow">this</A>. The Church has always been hostile to curiosity, from laymen reading the Bible to scientists looking through telescopes.Conrad H. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-68716726547423093782008-10-17T09:06:00.000-04:002008-10-17T09:06:00.000-04:00For more on writing in books, ancient and modern, ...For more on writing in books, ancient and modern, see <A HREF="http://vunex.blogspot.com/2006/01/marginalia.html" REL="nofollow">this</A>.Conrad H. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-9971676592564062702008-10-17T09:03:00.000-04:002008-10-17T09:03:00.000-04:00Finally while I do write in books, it is always wi...<I>Finally while I do write in books, it is always with a pencil and what I write is never addressed to the author either.</I><BR/><BR/>Same here (I can't swear my notes are never addressed to the author, but it's certainly rare; I may note that an idea is stupid, but I wouldn't write "You stupidhead!"), and I resent people who make notes in pen when I'm looking at used books they've made it impossible for me to buy. Penciled notes can be erased. Thanks for clarifying!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-16640753087616162252008-10-17T08:50:00.000-04:002008-10-17T08:50:00.000-04:00Personally, I don't write in books. I respond to b...Personally, I don't write in books. I respond to books in Word documents instead. But I have no objection to others writing in margins, so long as it is interesting--whether intrinsically or historically.Conrad H. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-90817334768946801252008-10-16T17:48:00.000-04:002008-10-16T17:48:00.000-04:00"a fellow practitioner"More of a dabbler, really."a fellow practitioner"<BR/><BR/>More of a dabbler, really.Michael Drakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06141593700908475896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-78149169072689031532008-10-16T16:23:00.000-04:002008-10-16T16:23:00.000-04:00Yes, languagehat-- my mistake. I underline and wri...Yes, languagehat-- my mistake. I underline and write in books all the time. What I don' do, or have never had the inclination to do is write explicatives or angry words in books... As an editor feel free to fix my comment--however, I really thought it was rather clear<BR/><BR/>"Why use fighting words when you write in books?" Better?<BR/><BR/>In any event, not all my books are mass market items and even if they were an object's value has less to do with any objectively measurable manufactured number of printings (or manufacturing costs) but rather is based on the subjective experience of the experiencing subject. So that, if Moby Dick changed my life-- well then mass market or not that book will have value to me and I will approach it with respect. My father actually always washed his hands before he picked up a book-- is that a fetish? or is it just an orientation or cultural practice? <BR/><BR/>Finally while I do write in books, it is always with a pencil and what I write is never addressed to the author either. That is what I meant, of course. <BR/><BR/>And, I think we are all book sniffers around here...Peonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15418037102755683814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-72671292348625444132008-10-16T12:59:00.000-04:002008-10-16T12:59:00.000-04:00Ah, another book-sniffer! I remember my relief wh...Ah, another book-sniffer! I remember my relief when I ran across a fellow practitioner after years of being mocked for my harmless habit. Now I know that we are legion!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-26281580289080490302008-10-16T12:00:00.000-04:002008-10-16T12:00:00.000-04:00Now you can annotate your books and fetishize them...Now you can annotate your books and fetishize them too -- all with the new Kindle! (If they could only give e-books that marvelous aroma of vanillin or camphor....)Michael Drakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06141593700908475896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-25678559031326854482008-10-16T10:46:00.000-04:002008-10-16T10:46:00.000-04:00Does anyone else find it strange to find curiosity...Does anyone else find it strange to find curiosity on the tree of death? After all, a church with such a distinguished record of support for science (despite some lapses) cannot consistently oppose curiosity. Or is this some special Catholic use of the term, vaguely akin to <I>scrupulosity</I>?John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-56763083358665560222008-10-16T10:44:00.000-04:002008-10-16T10:44:00.000-04:00My feeling (and it is a feeling; I admit in full t...My feeling (and it is a feeling; I admit in full the rational force of LH's arguments) is as follows: write in books to correct printing errors; that is, to restore the author's intent, but leave that intent alone. The notion of writing a factual correction or, worse yet, a contrary opinion in a book just makes me shudder.<BR/><BR/>And yet my parents, who were academics, wrote in books all the time, and I greatly value many of their annotations in their books that I now own. I suspect I incorporated this feeling when my parents told me not to <I>scribble</I> in books, since I was reading from such a young age that I no longer remember not reading, much less not being able to read.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.com