tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post2097114109158262961..comments2024-03-07T12:57:35.296-05:00Comments on Varieties of Unreligious Experience: Aesthetics with a HammerConrad H. Rothhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-69424714855193699572007-11-02T11:36:00.000-04:002007-11-02T11:36:00.000-04:00It does seem, Mr Roth, that you've been trolling t...It does seem, Mr Roth, that you've been trolling the Valve.<BR/><BR/>To conflate a judgment of incompetence with personal dislike would seem to belong outside the<BR/>"debate and circulation of ideas in literary studies and contiguous academic areas"<BR/><BR/>Alert and serious Valvers should, of course, have immediately recognized that and completely ignored you -- but I'm the last person to blame a troll for wanting to have fun at the expense of pious academics.<BR/><BR/>(I don't know how I missed this post back in February. BTW -- you promised that a subsequent post would present some literature that you liked -- but I can't find it)chris millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09575033275184403015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-69526933201728536572007-08-18T15:20:00.000-04:002007-08-18T15:20:00.000-04:00Familiar words. I haven't got there yet. Maybe bec...Familiar words. I haven't got there yet. Maybe because I <EM>started</EM> from maths.Conrad H. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-77054518109706444082007-08-18T15:13:00.000-04:002007-08-18T15:13:00.000-04:00Perhaps we outgrow certain books and styles? Espec...Perhaps we outgrow certain books and styles? Especially when one can see the point of view without even reading the whole work?<BR/>However, there are few gems that we reread. <BR/>I am inclined to think, the wiser we become the less we like to read--- but we reach this point after reading a great deal--<BR/>I have begun to take more interest in science and mathematics lately after 15 years in the humanities--degrees in greek, latin, french, german and philosophy. <BR/>It has a different kind of beauty and rigor--now after studying Math---I can see why my Mathematics friends--the creative ones do not like to read too much. I think I might very well after all the humanities be just happy as a math teacher.renukahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14845571986230295139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-38912907075006167332007-03-23T16:40:00.000-04:002007-03-23T16:40:00.000-04:00I agree, John, except about the Germans and Victor...I agree, John, except about the Germans and Victorians, whom I generally admire.Conrad H. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-87814164997396537242007-03-23T11:05:00.000-04:002007-03-23T11:05:00.000-04:00Coming here from Language Hat, where I posted the ...Coming here from Language Hat, where I posted the following, advocating the move from appreciation to depreciation, and then from normative depreciation to pure depreciation:<BR/><BR/><I>It seems to me, though that you were depreciating what you thought was 'bad' literature, rather than depreciating neutrally.</I><BR/><BR/>In fact, though, I didn't mean it, since I think that analysis should be an integral. contributory, but subordinate part of personal appreciation / depreciation. In other words, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. <BR/><BR/>I skipped the Valve thread, since I have never read Woolf, under the impression that I probably would not like her. This is, of course, the ultimate and triumphant depreciation: "I have so much contempt for Plato that I have never read him", as a student (an overenthusiastic pragmatist?) told William James or someone like that.<BR/><BR/>"Be fair, and if you can't be fair, be arbitrary": William Burroughs. There's too much stuff to read, and if you acknowledge a canon you'll never discover anything. My method has been to range as far as possibly, take chances with inexpert readings, ignore whatever I feel like, insult whatever I feel like, and write about things I like or dislike (in literature, mostly what I like). <BR/><BR/>To me the killer at the Valve, and even more so Crooked Timber (which isn't very literary anyway) is the transformation of literature into a serious, responsible activity, when in fact a lot of its value come from the escape from seriousness and responsibility -- writing a novel is not like surgery. I blame the Germans and the Victorians, who felt guilty when they weren't producing something.John Emersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12058849885222086640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-53816356577134329472007-02-10T10:23:00.000-05:002007-02-10T10:23:00.000-05:00My brain likes your brain.My brain hurts though.My...My brain likes your brain.<BR/>My brain hurts though.<BR/>My brain thinks into you<BR/><BR/>as<BR/><BR/>Iron Toad Bull bucking<BR/>living rune school provisionality<BR/>figure<BR/><BR/>a wine taster:<BR/><BR/>this blog has good character<BR/>wonderful complexity<BR/>a kind of odd heft and eccentricity<BR/><BR/>totally killer post, dude!<BR/><BR/>runeio<BR/><BR/>can you belee dis<BR/><BR/>ei<BR/>ei <BR/>O<BR/><BR/>and on this pharm<BR/>he had some Rooins<BR/><BR/>EIEI<BR/><BR/>oh...Phanero Noemikonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08430230355065457354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-49150971026204889832007-02-10T10:20:00.000-05:002007-02-10T10:20:00.000-05:00I'd better hold my tongue on the literary merits o...<I>I'd better hold my tongue on the literary merits of Stephen King (I guess I just have a 'blind spot' there), in that case...consensus being such an infallible tool of appraisal.</I><BR/><BR/>Ah, thank you for reminding me I left out an important qualifier: I meant "generally considered a master <B>by people whose opinion I otherwise respect</B>." I see your arsenal includes a quiver of cheap shots; it's admirable that you want to defend the Admirable Conrad, but you might want to do so with more appropriate weaponry. As he is aware, even if you are not, I hold him in respect and affection even as I yanked the chain he left out so temptingly in plain sight, so you needn't be quite so determined in your vigilance.Languagehathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13285708503881129380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-75537832486762596272007-02-10T03:10:00.000-05:002007-02-10T03:10:00.000-05:00Persephone (I'm feeling Greek at the moment):How e...Persephone (I'm feeling Greek at the moment):<BR/><BR/>How else shall I take it? (Tipping my hat)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-40308234842671271612007-02-09T20:04:00.000-05:002007-02-09T20:04:00.000-05:00Steven Augustine. Your rhetorical style is evocati...Steven Augustine. Your rhetorical style is evocative . . . you may take that as a compliment, if you like.<BR/><BR/>(A non-sequitur from a non-agelast.)Malonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04345790207108760002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-44017644772291218932007-02-09T17:51:00.000-05:002007-02-09T17:51:00.000-05:00Ach, mein gott, i didnt know Nabokov hated Freud a...Ach, mein gott, i didnt know Nabokov hated Freud and Dostoevsky and Don Qixote. That's great, all make my list. Of course, Nabokov is on it, too.Sir Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953581535133000686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-24325094123642796672007-02-09T17:45:00.000-05:002007-02-09T17:45:00.000-05:00I hate Virginia Wolf, and, like you, think she is ...I hate Virginia Wolf, and, like you, think she is grossly overrated. In Puchalsky's terms I am REALLY impoversihed: I don't read comics or watch superman or pay lip service to Bertold Brecht. Deliberate attempt to provoke comments? I doubt it, but it has had this effect, hasn't it? Keep it up, Conrad, hate them. What's a man's use in life if he has no pet hates to indulge?Sir Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953581535133000686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-10096414797373558962007-02-09T16:20:00.000-05:002007-02-09T16:20:00.000-05:00Come on guys, let's not turn this into the Valve. ...Come on guys, let's not turn this into the Valve. We got a good thing going here.Conrad H. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-29049912203600818792007-02-09T15:14:00.000-05:002007-02-09T15:14:00.000-05:00"If I find myself failing to appreciate some autho..."If I find myself failing to appreciate some author generally considered a master..." <BR/><BR/>I'd better hold my tongue on the literary merits of Stephen King (I guess I just have a 'blind spot' there), in that case...consensus being such an infallible tool of appraisal. And 'sense' warns me against dismissing Miss Pearl S. Buck as a second-stringer gifted in diligence rather than Art, the Nobel Prize being the irrefutable sign of her mastery. Pearl S. Buck...James A. A. Joyce...a difference in degrees rather than category, right? And now that you've equated Virginia Woolf with William Shakespeare (though how his name got dragged into this I can't quite figure) I'm hesitant to point you towards the fact that I wasn't 'agreeing' with Conrad that Woolf is over-praised; I was disagreeing with your bizarre contention that him saying so is by definition immature.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-31168931954221632042007-02-09T11:24:00.000-05:002007-02-09T11:24:00.000-05:00Why Ms. Woolf should be further above the jurisdic...<I>Why Ms. Woolf should be further above the jurisdiction of Mr. Roth's personal dismssal than, say, an unknown scribbler in a dank bedsit in Elephant and Castle is beyond me.</I><BR/><BR/>It's not a matter of being "above the jurisdiction," it's a matter of having some sense. If I find myself failing to appreciate some author generally considered a master, I can either say "Huh, I guess I just have a blind spot there" or "Hah! I have seen through the veils of obscurantism and cultural hegemony that cause so many to fall into the trap of pretending to like what is plainly nothing more nor less than a verbal dog's breakfast!" I tend to find the first approach more agreeable to both my personality and the laws of probability. The whole "Shakespeare is just another dead white male propped up by the culture industry!" shtick got stale quite some time ago.<BR/><BR/>Conrad old bean: Nothing personal, I just like to see if those who dish it out are averse to taking it. I think you know I don't consider you any sort of fool.Languagehathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13285708503881129380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-19457083426085250002007-02-08T19:38:00.000-05:002007-02-08T19:38:00.000-05:00I am relieved to discover that most of my readersh...I am relieved to discover that most of my readership have taken this dismissive missive with the requisite good humour. The agelasts (admirers of Woolf?) can suit themselves. Let each cleave to his own strengths.<BR/><BR/>LH--come come old chap, let's not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late. Perhaps I remain a queasy graduate squeezing his pimples--and perhaps those pimples are merely painted on.<BR/><BR/>Proserpine--I think a formalist aesthetic sits quite nicely with a taste for old-fashioned philology. <BR/><BR/>Pedro--bingo.<BR/><BR/>Everyone else--yes, yes, yes.Conrad H. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-58865351482086098692007-02-08T18:44:00.000-05:002007-02-08T18:44:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Shawn Thurishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09594444415956471021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-56062579583498249042007-02-08T16:07:00.000-05:002007-02-08T16:07:00.000-05:00For all my bad English, I used to think Virginia W...For all my bad English, I used to think Virginia Woolf was just about fin-de-siècle purple prose revitalized with a very saccharine teenager pathos and some witty borrowings from great english prose stylists. That was in a time when I could stand reading Orlando in the course of a week, pausedly. I tend to be far less opinionated now: can't read half a page.Pedro Eduardo Ferrarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06272073927620219544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-66135570119422974452007-02-08T14:53:00.000-05:002007-02-08T14:53:00.000-05:00I bet these books will be very simple: the more bo...I bet these books will be very simple: the more books one has read, the more one will appreciate simplicity and hate complexity, according to your reasoning if I understand you well, and I agree. I'm reading a very simple book right now, and yet in its simplicity it is a literary monument, a pity it's Dutch: "Kneeling on a bed of violins" by Jan Siebelink. But I must admit that I didn't read as many books as one would expect at mu age, at most a fraction I think of what you have read.Erikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08731308036195016808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-50265635009583278582007-02-08T11:20:00.000-05:002007-02-08T11:20:00.000-05:00Ah, yes. The apparent immaturity inherent in knock...Ah, yes. The apparent immaturity inherent in knocking what others (even, perhaps, a majority) perceive as 'great'. True, as well, of Ms. Woolf's dismissal of Mr. Joyce's cloacal 'Ulysses'? Nabokov's knocking of Don Quixote, Dostoevsky and Freud? Or is there a waiver granted in cases of *celebrity* animadversion? <BR/><BR/>Strong opinions require only confidence to assert and reason to defend, I'd say. Why Ms. Woolf should be further above the jurisdiction of Mr. Roth's personal dismssal than, say, an unknown scribbler in a dank bedsit in Elephant and Castle is beyond me. If by 'maturity' you mean the knee-jerk circumspection of a PC equivocator...well, okay then.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-85858841967186220412007-02-08T10:02:00.000-05:002007-02-08T10:02:00.000-05:00The recognition that one cannot appreciate everyth...The recognition that one cannot appreciate everything, and should not try, is a symptom of growing maturity; the impulse to sneer at what one does not appreciate (to call Woolf "incompetent," as if one's own appreciation were the final judgment) is a disease of youth.Languagehathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13285708503881129380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-56945318440961732412007-02-08T09:46:00.000-05:002007-02-08T09:46:00.000-05:00Nice to see that the strident misanthropic old Con...Nice to see that the strident misanthropic old Conrad has returned. <BR/><BR/>If a work of art must rise to the standard of the sublime in order for you to appreciate it, it's no wonder you turn your back on the pleasures of the text in order to engage in the social pleasure of elitism.<BR/><BR/>And I would have characterized you as more of an old-fashioned philologist than a formalist, but that's purely based on the evidence of this blog, not on the positions you've taken elsewhere.Malonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04345790207108760002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-76039725016110486632007-02-08T05:24:00.000-05:002007-02-08T05:24:00.000-05:00To read (or to be read) is one thing, to reread is...To read (or to be read) is one thing, to reread is quite another.<BR/>“Je n'écris que pour être relu.” (It's only to be reread that I write.) -- André GideAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-23208623320804931112007-02-08T04:59:00.000-05:002007-02-08T04:59:00.000-05:00What I like, especially, is that "Rich", the scour...What I like, especially, is that "Rich", the scourge of impoverishment in all its sad forms (the wretched gourmet who eschews the Burger King's offer of enrichment, for example) was so presciently named by his parents! A tour of his compound reveals, no doubt, the book shelves of leather-bound (gold-leafed) classics...Treasure Island, The Jungle Book, Call of the Wild, and so forth; the wine cellar (egalitarianly above-ground) with its screwtop treasures; the framed sunsets on the walls of the sleeping quarters and the velvet masterpiece in the rec room/TV center/ mead hall...those wise dogs and their pool cues. A lesson in living!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-14941624009346888172007-02-08T03:26:00.000-05:002007-02-08T03:26:00.000-05:00Today's diatribe is a deliberate attempt to provok...Today's diatribe is a deliberate attempt to provoke comments - just like my uni tutors used to throw into the tutorial, then sit back and prove us all wrong. I shall continue reading undeterred.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-65433942864676688222007-02-08T01:36:00.000-05:002007-02-08T01:36:00.000-05:00Entertaining sophistry, but sophistry nonetheless....Entertaining sophistry, but sophistry nonetheless.<BR/><BR/>Critical appreciation is about critical understanding, and has little or nothing to do with personal or visceral appreciation. One may gain great pleasure from reading (or in your case, having read) a work which one's critical function values very low indeed; in other words, one can enjoy trash without failing to see that it is trash. (I had that experience yesterday.)<BR/><BR/>As we learn more, we become more able to appreciate a work in the critical sense. This is connected with the fact that when we don't like the work of a particular artist or school, we tend to think that the works are all alike. Understanding brings out the differences.<BR/><BR/>The person who, as he knows more and more, likes less and less, is a familiar figure among reviewers (<A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Simon_%28critic%29" REL="nofollow">John Simon</A> is a striking example) but not among critics proper.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.com