tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post858225097638051159..comments2024-03-07T12:57:35.296-05:00Comments on Varieties of Unreligious Experience: For the BirdsConrad H. Rothhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-88583875388254579212007-08-25T17:38:00.000-04:002007-08-25T17:38:00.000-04:00A few years ago I encountered the delightful hypot...A few years ago I encountered the <A HREF="http://www.pseudopodium.org/ht-20050920.html#2005-10-25" REL="nofollow">delightful hypothesis</A> that grammar developed as a sexual display, with Bengalese finches entered as evidence.Ray Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15998321016748928251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-18309284993061754082007-08-24T21:32:00.000-04:002007-08-24T21:32:00.000-04:00PS I note Frederick II and his granddad, F I, the...PS I note Frederick II and his granddad, F I, the red beard, had often been confused in legend. I take it as my excuse.Sir Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953581535133000686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-14329106992704788752007-08-24T21:31:00.000-04:002007-08-24T21:31:00.000-04:00ah, yes, Barbarossa was his granddad, wasn't it.th...ah, yes, Barbarossa was his granddad, wasn't it.<BR/><BR/>the subject of ferile children would make for a nice post, eh? but the subject of the natural language -- the one we spoke before the tower of Babel -- in which alone things are what they are, which has magical powers -- perhaps God spoke it to create the world -- would be more of the vunex fare, i suppose.<BR/><BR/>have a nice holiday and come back refreshed. i hope it does rain. it does here, fitchforks.Sir Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953581535133000686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-85215626042543500082007-08-23T20:27:00.000-04:002007-08-23T20:27:00.000-04:00Thanks, G. I didn't know these details about birds...Thanks, G. I didn't know these details about birdsong, which are consistent with the general remarks about Aitchison. However, I did know about the Frederick II (not Barbarossa) story. According to Kantorowicz the children all died! (Though I wonder if the story is not apocryphal: a similar tale is told by Herodotus of <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psammetichus_I" REL="nofollow">Psammetichus</A>, who discovered that Phrygian was the primal language.)Conrad H. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-2191312282690678202007-08-23T20:17:00.000-04:002007-08-23T20:17:00.000-04:00it would probably go beyond the boundaries of this...it would probably go beyond the boundaries of this discussion (such as they are) to discuss bird song in the musical theories (and the music itself) of Messiaen. <BR/><BR/>but it may interest you to know a factoid, which the wiki page you quote does not mention: bird song appears to be organized differently in different species of birds: some species appear to have an innate song (deafened chicks still begin to sing it about day 20 or so); some species need to learn it (deafened chicks never learn to sing anything); and some exhibit combination of the two (deafened chicks learn only a rudimentary, "ugly" song). <BR/><BR/>in a similar experiment, Frederick Barbarossa, Stupor Mundi, ordered several small children to be raised in complete silence to see what language they would grow up to speak if their minds were not channeled into that of their nannies. the experiment appears to have foreseen four alternatives: a) Latin (of course) b) Hebrew c) Arabic (he was king of Sicily and later Jerusalem, of course) or d) some other, more basic language, thought to be angelic -- quite possibly the language spoken by humanity prior to the tower of Babel. (Which was of course -- though Stupor Mundi did not know it, either Chinese or some Slavic tongue). the experiment failed though it is not certain why -- the explanation given was that it failed because the nannies who had been ordered to remain totally silent could not resist telling their babies how much they love them etc.<BR/><BR/>similarly broad material on bird songs in Chinese literature; the Chinese still refer to the sound of foreign tongues as being "like bird-song.Sir Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953581535133000686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-11876129724205706432007-08-21T01:19:00.000-04:002007-08-21T01:19:00.000-04:00And it's also worth mentioning the famed parrots o...And it's also worth mentioning the famed parrots of Telegraph Hill, which are no longer confined to that locality and now seem to be all over the place. A flock of these things (actually conures) sounds like nothing so much as a gaggle of thirteen-year-old-girls. They are clearly conversing, though their thoughts do not strike me as deep.Mencius Moldbughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16472157249344139282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-37725678785670112692007-08-21T01:16:00.000-04:002007-08-21T01:16:00.000-04:00Speaking of corvids and falcons: I've befriended m...Speaking of corvids and falcons: <BR/><BR/>I've befriended my local resident pair of ravens with the aid of big bags of Costco peanuts. They seem to enjoy playing catch-the-peanut, but won't quite take one from my hand.<BR/><BR/>This year they had a baby who is now a juvenile, and who is old enough to come for peanuts sometimes on his own. I expect he will be ejected from the vicinity shortly. Life as a young raven is hard.<BR/><BR/>But today I was on the deck as he was attacked, or quasi-attacked, or something, by a peregrine falcon. I don't think a raven, even a young one, is really appropriate prey for a falcon, but who knows, maybe it was worth a try. The falcon kind of sneaked up on him, fluttered a few feet overhead, the raven looked at him and cawed, the falcon thought better of it and flew off. Ravens have rather large sharp beaks, I suppose. I wouldn't want to mess with them. And the city is full of nice fat pigeons.<BR/><BR/>The crow is a very inferior bird. They shouldn't even be mentioned in the same context. I'm sure ravens feel about crows much the way Charles Kingsley's salmon, in the <I>Water-Babies</I>, shared his feelings on the subject of trout.Mencius Moldbughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16472157249344139282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-54098826041893501852007-08-20T19:57:00.000-04:002007-08-20T19:57:00.000-04:00Wow, these are all nice additions, thanks. Ah, Kir...Wow, these are all nice additions, thanks. Ah, Kircher! How could I forget? I'll have to look this passage up tomorrow. Don't tell me you <EM>own</EM> a copy of the <EM>Musurgia Universalis</EM>, Michael? I might just have to hunt you down and make off with your library in the middle of the night... My own experience with birds is rather small, being a Londoner. I did have seagulls ca'ing furiously outside my bedroom every morning at 6, which I always found a very profound and pleasant noise.<BR/><BR/>LH: yes I know, I was joking.Conrad H. Rothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01916542057749474124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-37444890063027225432007-08-20T13:35:00.000-04:002007-08-20T13:35:00.000-04:00Khlebnikov, whose father was an ornithologist, did...<A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velimir_Khlebnikov" REL="nofollow">Khlebnikov</A>, whose father was an ornithologist, did talk about the "language of the birds" (and introduce it into his play <I>Zangezi</I>), but I wouldn't call it a feature of <I>zaum</I> as such; I've read a fair amount about <I>zaum</I>, but this is the first I'd heard of the bird thing (I googled the information about Khlebnikov).<BR/><BR/>Just because I'm skeptical about the idea that animals have language doesn't mean I'm uninterested in what people have said on the subject!Languagehathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13285708503881129380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-30768944443008519402007-08-20T12:38:00.000-04:002007-08-20T12:38:00.000-04:00On a completely different note, I'll mention that ...On a completely different note, I'll mention that Athanasius Kircher transcribed bird calls in his "Musurgia universalis" Some of these may be heard in the "Sonata representativa" of Heinrich Ignaz Franz Biber von Bibern, who undoubtedly knew Kircher's work. After quite a number of bird calls are played, the cat appears, and frightens the birds away!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-12220010968777340752007-08-20T12:26:00.000-04:002007-08-20T12:26:00.000-04:00I hesitate to introduce such a work into distingui...I hesitate to introduce such a work into distinguished literary company of the sort mentioned here, but Bert Popowski's "Varmint and Crow Hunters's Bible" (1962) contains an extensive discussion of crow language. <BR/><BR/>Crows, like lawyers, as individuals are intelligent and interesting birds, but a large flock of them constitutes a predatory nuisance. I have observed their behavior for many years and have no doubt that they communicate effectively with each other. Their calls are remarkably varied and it is likely that each one has a different meaning. Crows surely have "words" to inform their brethren: "Road kill here!" <BR/><BR/>They also like to destroy the eggs of other birds, and I watched with appalled fascination how three of them teamed up to reconnoitre a mallard hen nesting in our pond, waiting to swoop down and eat the eggs as soon as the poor duck left her nest. I have several times found duck and pheasant nests abandoned after a crow raid of this sort. Often very little of the eggs has been eaten, even though every one of them has been pierced and cracked by a crow's bill. <BR/><BR/>Another bird that is very vocal - at least in the vicinity of its nest - is the peregrine falcon (duck hawk). Last year a pair of them nested on my property and fledged two young. They "talked" constantly back and forth between the nest and wherever else one of them was. It was a splendid sight to see a peregrine perched on the railing of the stairs leading to my front door, or drinking water from a puddle on my patio. Peregrines do not get along with crows, and one of the benefits of their presence last year was that they induced the noisy flock of crows that hung around the place to move. Unfortunately the peregrines did not come back this year and so the crows have returned.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-72850184065598333862007-08-20T10:18:00.000-04:002007-08-20T10:18:00.000-04:00Back when I lived in Michigan, I was plagued by a ...Back when I lived in Michigan, I was plagued by a whip-poor-will that would invariably start shrieking at 3:00 am. I had no trouble understanding him: "My tree! My tree! My tree!"<BR/><BR/>I've suspected that Sudre had the language of the birds in mind when he was creating his <I>langue musicale universelle</I>, <A HREF="http://www.langmaker.com/db/Mdl_solresol.htm" REL="nofollow">Solresol</A>. Another musical conlang of possible interest is <A HREF="http://www.eaiea.com/" REL="nofollow">Eaiea</A>, though it's a bit less philosophically grandiose and not as germane to this discussion.<BR/><BR/>There's a natural whistling language from the Canary Islands called <A HREF="http://silbo-gomero.com/silbohome.html" REL="nofollow">Silbo Gomero</A> that <A HREF="http://silbo-gomero.com/mp3s/silbo.mp3" REL="nofollow">sounds quite bird-like</A>.<BR/><BR/>The <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_the_birds" REL="nofollow">Wikipedia article</A> that you mention has a passing reference to <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaum" REL="nofollow">Zaum</A>, a poetically polemical Russian language of the birds from early last century, and not one that I'd heard of before. Great stuff.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-59526355809492980762007-08-20T06:41:00.000-04:002007-08-20T06:41:00.000-04:00Of interest in this connection is Pierre Le Loyer’...Of interest in this connection is Pierre Le Loyer’s <I>La Nephelococugie</I> (1579), a Rabelaisian imitation of Aristophanes’s <I>Birds</I>. It follows the plot of the ancient comedy fairly closely, but replaces a lot of the characters and references: so Le Loyer replaces the crow and the jay that lead the main characters to Tereus (here Jean Cocu) at the beginning of the play with the oracle of the ‘Dive Bouteille’. He also gets a lot of obscene humour out of the choice to make all the main characters ‘cocus’ (cuckoos/cuckolds). He replaces the character Meton with an ‘Alchemist’, who talks in an incomprehensible language of ambiguities and rebuses: to which Genin (Euelpides) responds ‘Je n’y entendz que le haut Allemand!’ (it’s all Greek to him).Raminagrobishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12008850757226541475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20433842.post-36349715950170262742007-08-19T22:14:00.000-04:002007-08-19T22:14:00.000-04:00'Tis mute, the word they went to hear on high Dodo...'Tis mute, the word they went to hear on high Dodona mountain<BR/>When winds were in the oakenshaws and all the cauldrons tolled,<BR/>And mute's the midland navel-stone beside the singing fountain,<BR/>And echoes list to silence now where gods told lies of old.<BR/><BR/>I took my question to the shrine that has not ceased from speaking,<BR/>The heart within, that tells the truth and tells it twice as plain;<BR/>And from the cave of oracles I heard the priestess shrieking<BR/>That she and I should surely die and never live again.<BR/> <BR/>Oh priestess, what you cry is clear, and sound good sense I think it;<BR/>But let the screaming echoes rest, and froth your mouth no more.<BR/>'Tis true there's better boose than brine, but he that drowns must drink it;<BR/>And oh, my lass, the news is news that men have heard before.<BR/> <BR/><I>The King with half the East at heel is marched from lands of morning;<BR/>Their fighters drink the rivers up, their shafts benight the air,<BR/>And he that stands will die for nought, and home there's no returning.</I><BR/>The Spartans on the sea-wet rock sat down and combed their hair.<BR/><BR/>See also <A HREF="http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2006/04/war-after-simonides.html" REL="nofollow">my take</A> on that war.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.com